From: Sir Arthur C. B. Wholeflaffers A.S.A. ([email protected])
Subject: Re: Are UFO Debunkers At Least Amateur Scientists//Evidence Proves the answer is NO!!
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Newsgroups: sci.skeptic, alt.alien.visitors, alt.alien.research, alt.paranet.ufo
Date: 2002-08-16 08:06:58 PST
In article <[email protected]>, Vincent J. Murphy says…
>
>On Fri, 16 Aug 2002 04:18:34 GMT, Sir Arthur C B Wholeflaffers A.S.A <[email protected]> scribbled:
>>
>> 1. Don’t bother me with the facts; my mind is made up.
>>
>> 2. What the public and the media don’t know, I will not tell them.
>>
>> 3. If you can’t attack the data, attack the people; it is easier.
>>
>> 4. Do your research by proclamation, rather than investigation. It is much
>> easier.
>
> Hmmm. Eliminate the title from this list, and it actually fits
>most of the ‘believers’ actually. VJM
Hmmmm, a typical ignorant reply. There is NO such
things as a believer, except on the debunker side.
You Don’t Have To ‘Believe’ In UFOs Any Longer By James Neff
<[email protected]> 5/28/00
Whenever I hear the question “do you believe in UFOs?” there often arises an
instant feeling of frustration which quickly rolls over into fatigue and a sense
of pity. To most of those who have devoted even a reasonable portion of time to
acquiring an understanding of the phenomenon, the term “belief” simply doesn’t,
and should never, apply. To use this expression shoves the UFO over into the
category of religion or even fantasy, and nothing could be more inaccurate or
counter-productive. It takes absolutely no leap of faith, no mustering of
imagination or whimsy for any rational mind to realize what is already a proven
reality: UFOs exist and are as real and the
Pacific Ocean or the Rocky Mountains (and may have been here just as long). The
simple fact of the matter is, UFOs (and whatever may be INSIDE them) are a real,
verified and massively documented phenomena … but much of our culture and
language perpetuate and cling to the erroneous notion that we’re dealing with
some kind of specter or myth.
One might ‘believe’ in fire-breathing dragons or fairies … yet, there is no
evidence whatever that either of these exist. However, one need only look at the
facts now in evidence to see that ‘flying saucers’ (not merely “unidentified
flying objects”) do, indeed, exist. Those who know UFOs are ‘real’ need to make
a serious effort to cease using and condoning that negative terminology of doubt
inspired by our disinformation-driven culture. “Are you aware of UFOs?” (i.e.,
“have you been educated on the existence of flying saucers?”) should have
replaced “Do you believe in UFOs?” in both text and conversation long ago. We no
longer are soliciting people to ‘believe’. Instead, we are (or should be) asking
the uninformed to become educated to the facts. The issue of visitors to this
planet, wherever (or whenever) they originate, is as vital an issue as any world
geopolitical, religious, or economic affair or policy. In fact, it is probably
far more important.
It is simply a matter of education. The evidence we have for the existence of
unidentified flying machines, even if we toss out all photographic evidence and
all abduction accounts or close encounter experience testimonies from the most
reliable, credible civilian experiencers, is…massive. Even if we dismiss the
most credible testimony and eyewitness accounts, the evidence is…enormous.
What remains is a nearly a century of ‘expert’ interaction with flying saucers
(and other shaped craft) under extremely scientific, verifiable, and examinable
circumstances. I am speaking of the countless military and commercial pilot
interactions with these remarkable, unknown machines, in situations where often
entirely empirical testing of data has been recorded. One could not ask for a
much better ‘test lab’ for the UFO phenomenon than in the cockpit of a military
fighter or commercial airliner.
In both situations there are one, or more, specialists in the field of
atmospherics and aerodynamics in a ‘flying laboratory,’ well-equipped with
scientifically-approved and understood instrumentation which can record and note
verifiable time frames, locations, altitudes, longitudes, latitudes of the UFO
phenomena. Additionally, and obviously, there is also (in countless cases)
verification by radar — which constitutes a second ‘laboratory’ of qualified,
educated and capable specialists interpreting data. Apart from pilots in their
‘flying laboratories’ and their ground-based radar counterparts, there is now
also the testimony of astronauts who are increasingly detailing UFO evidence and
information outside of the stratosphere.
From these three sources alone, there exists undeniable proof of the ‘flying
saucer.’
UFOs have entered practically every ‘sensitive’ international airspace, been
tracked on uncountable
civilian and military radars, been pursued by the finest and most advanced
flying machines on the
planet, eye-witnessed by our best trained pilots, even fired upon (or so
attempted) by pilots dating
all the way back to reports from WWI aviators over England. Our visitors have
been tracked at speeds exceeding all known propulsion or contemporary technology
and fully-defying the laws of *our* physics. Flying Saucers have on scores of
occasions brought military units, including our nuclear forces, to full alert
and then engaged those forces in what appear to be tests of our technological
capacity. Flying Saucers of gargantuan size have been seen at close range by
both civilian and military professionals and verified by radar…both ground and
airborne. Some would even say our visitors have taunted and played with our
military…the reports of incursions into our SAC bases being particularly
extraordinary.
Millions of dollars are spent every year by air force units around the world
from every advanced
nation to intercept these aerial interlopers. Countries do not spend that kind
of money chasing
Venus, ‘heat inversions’ or entertaining myths. To suggest so is simply
preposterous. The information and data, mountains of it, from these civilian and
military aviation and defense specialists regarding the UFO match or exceed the
information we have from “less than expert” civilian eyewitnesses of UFOs, and
only serves to validate and support public accounts of UFOs and/or interactions
with them. We accept without reservation the existence of atomic and subatomic
particles which only a privileged handful of experts in that field of study have
ever ‘seen’ with the most advanced special instrumentation.
Granted, there is far more ‘scientific’ data and knowledge of atomic and
subatomic particles than
exists for flying saucers — but data is data, and evidence is evidence — and
we have no trouble in trusting and being dependent upon the experiences and
veracity of the physicists and scientists
involved. We accept the reality of these all but invisible atomic and sub-atomic
structures with no
hesitation. And yet with the flying saucer, we are not dealing with ‘invisibles’
at all. At best, one must define the flying saucer as transitory, difficult and
evasive — but nonetheless, a real part of our physical universe. Unlike the
atomic particle which is governed by laws already understood, or well on the way
to being understood within the sheer mechanics of the universe itself and its
conditions and measures, the UFO has behind it an intelligence of its own. We
can no more easily reach out and snatch a flying saucer for examination than we
can ball lightning… yet, both exist. (There is strong indication our military
has had examples of UFO technology …and its flight crews…for more than a
half century, but that is another subject altogether).
Our public sector scientific evaluation of the flying saucer is therefore more
akin to hunting a
rare and highly-advanced species of animal formerly classified as
‘cryptozooligical’ but now definitely reclassified as ‘authentic’ due to the
sheer weight of verifiable and coherent data from experts. Like the Tasmanian
Tiger, we now know they “are”… but to capture one for more advanced study
proves to be essentially impossible.
Ours or ‘theirs’?
It does appear that the U.S. military has developed craft with similar
appearance and capabilities as
some ‘flying saucers’ (as reported by many reasonable and credible individuals).
However,
history shows us that the flying saucer has been coming and going on planet
earth for generations,
and centuries, which rules out the idea that all flying saucers are manmade
craft of a clandestine
technology. Considering these realities, our language regarding UFOs should
cease, immediately, to reflect the elements of myth, legend or fantasy, and
fully embrace its definitive reality, helping to bring in a new cultural era
regarding the UFO. We must each arm ourselves with these most primary facts when
dealing with those uneducated, prepared to give a rational defense of the
subject. There is absolutely no reason to ever feel awkward about the issue
simply because others are poorly-educated about the facts. And educating them at
every opportunity is paramount. The reality of
UFOs is such that its implications require every human being to become as aware
of it as their
individual mental and emotional limits will allow. Our place in the universe is
likely to be defined
by this very subject, be it a truth we are ready to receive or a lie we are
miserably destined to
suffer.
Either way, we don’t “believe” in UFOs. No faith is required. It is not a
religion or occult pseudo
science. It is a reality. What we do with that reality is now squarely on the
table.
A Rebuttal by Jim Foreman; Editor, The Skeptic Report
His rebuttal is published as follows…
OK, we’ll grant that UFOs (in this, we mean Unidentified Flying Objects) do
exist. There are strange things in the sky that people see and then report to
their local branch of MUFON. Maybe these objects are vehicles, or are at least
unnatural phenomena built by intelligent species. Some of
them. Maybe. Does this mean that those few that are actually physical,
manufactured objects made by humans? Probably. Does this mean that they’re
created by aliens? Absolutely not. Other than grainy photographs, radar ghosts
and eyewitness testimony (which is always highly questionable…ask any lawyer)
I am not aware of anything empirical or scientific. Simply noting that something
is there, flying around, or might be flying around, in no way proves (or even
logically suggests) that it is an alien spacecraft.
There’s no evidence for any of that at all. There are also some pretty cool
accounts of vampires, but close examination by scientists familiar with body
decay and pathology have shown that vampires probably weren’t supernatural.
Thus, historical accounts can’t be trusted without modern analysis.
What really saddens us about the flavor of this whole article is the tendency
for the people responsible for the dissemination of UFO information to wholly
embrace the scanty evidence
for Unidentified Flying Objects and then similarly assume, without any
corroboration, that the objects are alien in origin. That’s inexcusable,
unscientific, and just plain unfair.
Reply
I love a skeptic, and consider myself one. A big one. It takes a lot to convince
me of anything. I’m
not even sure you are real, Jim 🙂 You write:
“This article basically extols the virtues of UFO worship, though he devotes the
article to
damning that anyone could “believe” in UFOs at all.
God forbid ANYONE “worships” UFOs as you claim I have encouraged! My entire
point is that the UFO is undeserving of such mentality… because of the weight
of evidence.
Now, allow me to defend myself only on two points, the rest of which I’ll leave
to the readers to
evaluate using that wonderful gray matter between their ears. My admonition: BE
SKEPTICAL. That’s the entire point. EDUCATE yourself on the facts. Once the
facts are in evidence, you will come to the same conclusion. Either that, or,
turn in denial and ignore the truth.
(1) I make it very clear that we have in no way defined the ORIGINS of the UFO;
this has NOT been verified or proven — admittedly it is entirely speculative
that they are “alien” craft from other
planets or ‘outer space’. But what I DO say is that since these craft have been
recorded historically
dating far beyond our own industrial revolution, much less the invention of
manned flight, we can
surmise that these are not all “ours” (ie, man made craft). You immediately
debunk this idea. Well,
history is on my side here. Anyone can crack a Bible and read about Ezekiel’s
UFO experience…
anyone can read the Upanishads of the Hindu’s and read about ‘air cars’ powered
by an energy source called ‘sidis’… and if one really wants to educate oneself
on the true history of UFOs, you
can read quite a lot in this excellent NIGHTWATCH article entitled “UFOs Through
The Ages…A
Timeline.” Because human beings have been describing this same phenomena for so
many centuries persuades me that the phenomena is at the very least not a
production of modern technology. It remains to determine what they are, where
they come from, etc. So we are in agreement — your
first statement is:
“OK, we’ll grant that UFOs (in this, we mean Unidentified Flying Objects) do
exist. There are strange things in the sky that people see and then report to
their local branch of MUFON. Maybe these objects are vehicles, or are at least
unnatural phenomena built by intelligent species.”
(2) My second point is to rise to your challenge of proof that the military/air
forces around the world spend millions of dollars dealing with the UFO
phenomena. These events are on record. Stanton Friedman and many other
researchers have amassed such data, and this is nothing new or earthshaking (to
the UFO educated). Iraqi & Israeli Air Force, as well as the French government,
have been entirely open about their UFO encounters. Several of our own
astronauts have openly told about their encounters with UFOs when in the Air
Force. Major Donald E. Kehoe spent the latter part of his life documenting such
cases provoked by personal experience. Filer’s Files frequently and archivally
have records of such events. These aren’t buried someplace! They’ve been known
to anyone wanting to learn about it for years. Do you have any idea how much it
costs to send your best fighters after a radar detected interloper traveling at
3000 mph over sensitive airspace (only to close in on it and discover it’s not a
missile, but a silver disc with brilliant lights playing cat and mouse)? Any
person in the air force will confirm this fact: it costs millions, even if it
only happens a few times a year. This website is overflowing with these cases
and accounts, as are many others. The documentation is openly available. The
witnesses, expert. The accounts, verified.
I will not defend the idea that UFOs are proven to be alien spacecraft. I don’t
know what they are. I simply know they ‘ARE’ and that historically the evidence
for their existence reveals that, whatever their origin, it is entirely
unrelated to our own technological status here on earth. Hence, it is not a
“belief” system. It is a rational assembly of facts with a reasonable
conclusion. Flying Saucers
(and other shapes and forms of this same aerial phenomena) EXIST. They being of
extraterrestrial origin is, indeed, a speculation; as is, a metaphysical
conclusion; as is a phenomenon of nature. My personal speculation, based on the
evidence, is that these are craft with intelligent occupants and/or guided by
intelligent means which is not human; there is ample evidence of intelligent
control behind these devices.
As I said, what we do with this reality is squarely on the table. I appreciate
your skeptical prodding’s. Keeps me on my toes 🙂
————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————
Geekatron <[email protected]> wrote on 9/5/0
At least he said something that will help this newsgroup and its readers.
Unlike your.. erm.. I don’t even want to call post.
———————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————–
Andreas Klokkaris <[email protected]> responded on 9/5/00
Excellent post man!
———–
Sir Arthur Wholeflaffer A.S.A. replied:
Thank you for your very insightful compliment.
This will put every debunker to shame,
———–
Andreas Klokkaris <[email protected]> added:
Hm…I wouldn’t bet on it. Believe me I’ve tried it in the past with posts
similar to the one you posted. Debunkers don’t seem to have the word shame (or
defeat) in their vocabulary. They are weird beings, really. My advice: Ignore
them until they rot! Ha-ha
———–
Sir Arthur Wholeflaffer A.S.A. again:
Now we know the five stages of the UFO debunker:
anger, denial, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
———–
Andreas Klokkaris <[email protected]> wrote:
Well said, but you can sum it all up with the following cutie that’s been around
the net lately:
“All truth passes through 3 stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is
violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being — Arthur Schopenhauer